Carlos Flavián: “I think that metaverse 4.0 has several decades left to be up and running”

How do you become the most cited researcher in your field, and have this international recognition?

I could not tell you. Being in the right place at the right time is key, consistency, direction and commitment are key. Just like the nose for choosing specific topics at specific times and, of course, having a very clear orientation in a direction. In the METODO group, we strive to publish articles putting ourselves in the reader's shoes and to transmit ideas clearly and precisely.

In all of Spain, there are less than 100 people in all areas on the list of Highly Cited Researchers (Clarivate) and, currently, I have 16 highly cited works, in the group there are more. That cannot be explained by a single factor.

We started our current lines of research in 2016. However, we had already published very interesting works on usability, on social networks before Facebook became popular, on digital press vs traditional press or on the role of influencers. In the end, it is a mix of everything, knowing how to choose and, of course, working and committing to following a clear and precise direction resolutely.

What has your professional career been like?

Twenty years ago, we were working on very interesting topics about usability and, with colleagues from I3A such as Paco Serón, Pedro La Torre or Eva Cerezo, we started the first Usability Laboratory in Spain at Walqa. We published very interesting works in which the importance of the usability of web pages was already highlighted to reduce the perceived risk, achieve trust and improve the user experience.

I still remember when we bought the first Eye Tracker. In 2006, we published a work that has been classified as a “classic in literature” by being among the ten most cited articles during the following ten years. That work is basic to understand the importance of usability in the development of a web page; it is still very current and highly cited.

In 2008, we read a thesis on social networks analysing networks prior to Facebook. In Spain until 2010, social networks were barely talked about.

I think we have always been innovative and have tackled very relevant issues from an economic and social point of view. In 2015, we were still working on social networks, but we were all doing the same thing. We saw the need to go a step further and invest in more disruptive technologies. It was then, that we began to work on the two main lines we are working on now.

What are the lines you are working on?

We are currently working on the analysis of the perceptions, intentions and actual behaviour of users when they interact with two major technologies. The first is artificial intelligence, personal assistants and service robots, and the second is immersive technologies, that is, virtual reality or augmented reality.

We are also committed to transferring this to society through the important work carried out with the Chair of Commercial Innovation or the AsMarTech association, which seeks literacy, promotion and appropriate use of Industry 4.0 technologies.

We are living in a time of technological revolution and change, is everything evolving very quickly or maybe it is just an impression?

There are management theories that talk about how we always have the perception that things change much faster and that the problems are much greater in the present moment. When we analyse the problems of this moment in five years we will think that everything was very continuous and stable. When you live in the present and in the first person you tend to magnify the problems. You have the feeling that the current problems are more important or that current technologies are evolving much faster. We have a tendency to overemphasize what is happening in the present.

"It is not a question of waiting for the definitive technology to appear to adopt it, but of being part of the revolution itself"

Is artificial intelligence going to change society?

Undoubtedly, the evolution of technology is exponential and the changes that will occur now, as a result of the incorporation of artificial intelligence, will be increasingly greater. Artificial intelligence will modify and automate practically everything.

However, sometimes we give too much importance to other technologies that are not yet mature. I have coordinated ten special issues in some of the most relevant international magazines on the user experience in the face of new technologies. Some of them on immersive technologies. At times, editors have asked me to refocus the proposal toward the metaverse. However, I believe that metaverse 4.0 still has several decades left to be up and running.

The same does not happen with virtual reality, you can put on VR glasses and perceive that the context around you is truly similar to what it is trying to represent. You can record a 360 video of a tourist landscape and get a very clear idea. Today, you can recreate these experiences with high fidelity. Using augmented reality on your mobile phone, you can try on a pair of trainers and see if they look good on you. You can see how a suit might look on you. Immersive technologies are mature technologies. They are a reality today.

You mentioned the metaverse, is that decades away? It seemed that he had not been successful...

We really started talking about the metaverse before this technology was mature. Facebook had an image problem with the Cambridge Analytics scandal. Therefore, they changed the name of the company to Meta and went for the concept of the metaverse. In the talks I have given about the metaverse, I focus on highlighting the barriers that we still must overcome to achieve a metaverse 4.0, because what we have now, I say, are betaverses, that is, beta versions of the metaverse. 

We need interoperability, currently there is no connection between different metaverses. The computational capacity of information has to be multiplied by a thousand times. We need to connect the entire real world and transfer that information to the virtual world. We have to develop not 5G but, probably, 6G.

It is not that the metaverse has gone out of fashion; it is just that it was not the right time. Of course, I think it is still decades away. I am very struck by the importance given to some topics when it is not yet the time and now no one wants to hear about the metaverse, when now we have made extraordinary progress. The development of autonomous systems or agents based on artificial intelligence. You can chat with a chatbot that exists in the metaverse and it is essential for you to have a first interaction.

Can something like this happen with artificial intelligence?

Artificial intelligence is not something that has to go out of fashion. Soon, no one will talk about artificial intelligence; they will talk about technology, because all systems will be automated.

Artificial intelligence is, perhaps, a more relevant step than communications through the Internet. It is the automation of all processes and it will be the basis of everything.

To a certain extent, I am concerned about restrictive legislation in Europe, trying to limit. I think it is better to educate in critical judgment. Society has to know that deepfakes exist and that a photo or a video may not be real, that the voice of a phone call may not be authentic and we have to apply our own knowledge and critical sense. We can prohibit what is done in Spain, but not what is done thousands of kilometers away and that will reach us in real time.

We must know what can be done, what credibility we can give to what we see and hear and make our own assessment, have our own critical judgment. I believe that artificial intelligence is going to be the basis of all automation processes and being the first to apply it offers extraordinary advantages. If our access to the latest technologies is cut off or delayed, we will not even be able to keep up with the United States and China.

"I think we are very lucky to live in this time, which is exciting for any enthusiast of new technologies"

Will we learn to use it and incorporate its use in a natural way?

Yes, it will come, we will learn and the important thing is that we learn as it is introduced. It is a good tool, it is something that allows you to multiply productivity, to scale your work, to go much further than you could go on your own and it is what could significantly reduce the number of hours worked. It is not a question of waiting for the definitive technology to appear to adopt it but of being part of the revolution itself.

We are very lucky to live in this era. The introduction of Industry 4.0 means entering the fourth industrial revolution. In the coming years, I think everything will change significantly. In all kinds of contexts, we need to automate processes. This technology will allow us to scale processes and tasks in unimaginable ways and take on new challenges that seem unthinkable today. The basis of all these changes is the application of artificial intelligence.

Where would you place the research being done in Aragon?

In the field that our research group deals with, we are currently doing extraordinarily well, we have become a true international reference. Last week I was at a conference in Europe and I never cease to be surprised by the recognition we have achieved.

I must also acknowledge that we were among the first to think and see that the time is right to launch this type of innovation. We have won the game, to a certain extent, because we saw the need to make a move earlier, because it was simply a matter of applying ideas. Now, ideas have to be supported by capital. Here, we have the resources that we have. What we were doing five years ago, everyone is doing and, furthermore, with technology, with infrastructure, something that we do not have.

What would you say to someone who is thinking of going into research?

I would say that being the owner of your actions and deciding what you do is a great opportunity and that, if you know how to take advantage of it, you can achieve excellent results. As I said before, I think we are very lucky to live in this time, which is exciting for any enthusiast of new technologies. Everything is going to change and it will be very positive for those who are able to embrace these technologies and adapt quickly, but it will also be very hard for those who choose to stay out or, for some reason, cannot integrate them into their daily lives.